16:56 <glezos> Ηι αλλ
16:56 <glezos> oops
16:56 <glezos> Hi all
16:56 <glezos> If I'm not mistaken, this should be the time slot for our L10n presentation
16:57 * glezos has changed the topic to: L10n: How our improved infrastructure affects you as a developer or translator
16:58 <glezos> So I'll try to give a brief overview of the Fedora Localization Project (FLP), it's history, what we've been doing the past months and what our plans for the future are
16:58 <glezos> Traditionally we've been handling translations through the internal i18n.redhat.com system
16:58 <glezos> Developers hosted their projects on CVS, and translators registered for an account there getting access to all modules
16:59 <glezos> Fedora is opening up its infrastructure lately
16:59 <glezos> and along these lines, we've been trying to open up our translation infra as well
16:59 <glezos> Why?
16:59 <glezos> Many reasons..
16:59 <glezos> Developers need access to non-CVS repositories
17:00 <glezos> Currently the Fedora Infrastructure project supports CVS, SVN, Mercurial and git... AFAIK bzr is another candidate
17:00 <glezos> the legacy system doesn't support them -- only CVS
17:01 <glezos> With 2000 translators, we need systems to easily manage the accounts -- We already one in the Fedora space, it's the Fedora Account System
17:02 <glezos> And with the project hosting, the FAS could help us out in assigning per-module access control lists, hence scaling better our translations and reaching out for more languages
17:02 <glezos> So, what we've been doing lately to make translations easier, and do more stuff with them?
17:03 <glezos> We've introduced string freezes in the Fedora Schedule, to make sure that the Fedora Releases have 100% translated software
17:04 <glezos> We are focusing in coordinating the L10n Project through fedora-trans-list -- before, we didn't even have a list for the project
17:04 <glezos> We encourage each language contributors to work in teams, just like other projects (great example is GNOME which has a highly respectable Translation Project)
17:05 <glezos> To make sure the collaboration is kept in high levels, we're encouraging each team to have its own maintainer, as a communication point for them team
17:05 <glezos> And we've started having regular IRC meetings.
17:05 <glezos> In the tools area:
17:06 <glezos> We've introduced a new website: http://translate.fedoraproject.org/
17:06 <glezos> It can list languages, teams, modules, maintainers. It supports multiple releases, so we can track branches easily
17:07 <glezos> And above all, it supports Version Control Systems (VCS) other than CVS
17:07 <glezos> - To help out developers do what they want, we've talked with people to move their modules away from the internal servers to our open infrastructure
17:08 <glezos> This is an on-going process, and the plan is to completely deprecate the i18n.redhat.com system for Fedora software and bring everything out in the open
17:08 <glezos> Community work -- Higher quality.
17:08 <glezos> - We've created a L10n repository to store our tools
17:09 <glezos> - We've created a bugzilla component so that bug reports for language mistakes and requests are sent to translators and not developers
17:09 <glezos> - And we've created a commit-list, so we can track what's going on in terms of translation files
17:09 <glezos> Finally, we've earned a Google Summer of Code project to create something that no other project has done so far:
17:10 <glezos> a tool to integrate the various Version Control Systems together in the eyes of a translator
17:10 <glezos> This is our main concern now, since it will give us the ability to do more stuff, easier.
17:11 <glezos> It will give developers the option to host their project on their VCS of choice -- thus increasing efficiency, productivity and, potianially, quality.
17:12 <glezos> Also, it will give developers the opportunity to reach out to the fedora translation community in an instance, to translate their software
17:12 <glezos> examples of outside, Fedora-related projects that could benefit are yum, rpm and OLPC
17:13 <glezos> Also, developers won't need to worry about maintaining accounts for the translators
17:14 <glezos> With transifex, the Fedora translation community can contribute *directly upstream*, which of course is in line with the Fedora motto "upstream, upstream, upstream!"
17:14 <glezos> Upstream means more projects than Fedora can benefit from each contribution
17:15 <glezos> This is in direct contrast with other efforts like Ubuntu's Rosetta, which hosts translations downstream, with no automatic or semi-automatic way to push them upstream
17:16 <glezos> Here's an overview of the model: http://glezos.fedorapeople.org/transifex.png
17:17 <glezos> Through our new submission system, translators will contribute to all our Repositories -- either they are the legacy systems, projects hosted on hosted.fpo, or various local repositories
17:17 <glezos> Also, to projects related to Fedora like smolt, revisor and the OLPC
17:18 <glezos> And finally, we could try to build up an architecture to enable submission directly to upstream projects like GNOME, KDE, Mozilla etc.
17:19 <glezos> At this point we are thinking of introducing editors/reviewers, that will "approve" the submissions, thus increasing the quality control
17:19 <glezos> -
17:19 <glezos> So, if you are a translator:
17:19 <glezos> Keep an eye on fedora-trans-list -- soon we're putting transifex in action
17:20 <glezos> If you are a developer:
17:21 <glezos> Are you hosting your project on elvis (i18n.redhat.com)? Move over to Fedora infrastructure on your VCS of choice and let us know to list your project at http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/
17:22 <glezos> Do you have a project not hosted on Fedora but want to give the Fedora translation commmunity the ability to contribute translations to it, with language maintainers possibly reviewing submissions? Keep an eye on planet.fedoraproject.org or fedora-announce-list in the following weeks
17:23 <glezos> Same goes for members of upstream projects -- we'd like your feedback for our work (https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/transifex/) in order to bring our translation communities closer and increase our coverage and quality
17:23 <glezos> -
17:24 <glezos> Any Questions so far? :)
17:25 <Rasther> glezos, do you have a date to transifex to be available?
17:26 <Rasther> or some schedule..
17:26 <glezos> Rasther, in terms of features, we're 100% for Fedora's needs
17:26 <glezos> currently we're testing it
17:26 <glezos> The plan for deployment is available at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/DimitrisGlezos/Notes#deployment
17:27 <nirik> glezos: so when upstream translators update things, does that get pulled back into transifex so there is no duplication of effort?
17:27 <glezos> We're focusing on making sure security is well-thought -- but I'd say we are in good shape to enable submissions on Fedora repos in the next 7 days.
17:28 <glezos> nirik, definitely -- transifex is just a gateway to submit stuff directly upstream, so with each commit in a decentralized VCS like hg/git a pull is done before, and a push afterwards
17:29 <joseppc> glezos: what will be available for translation in transifex?
17:29 <glezos> we're not copying translation files downstream at all.
17:29 * ricky wonders about encouraging other large translation teams to use transifex as well.
17:29 <nirik> excellent. Is there a list of apps/projects that will be supported? Have you talked with the Xfce project about adding them... they have a small but effective translation team...
17:30 <glezos> joseppc, I don't see a reason in limiting what could be translated through transifex. I'd say "any open source project".
17:31 <glezos> ricky, nirik, I see it as a 3-step process: 1. Make it work with Fedora's repos (4-5). 2. Expand in Fedora-related projects (yum, rpm, olpc come in mind). 3. Discuss with bigger projects with existing translation communities in finding how we can work together
17:31 <glezos> Some projects might want, for example, to have some editorial control -- which would require some coding :)
17:32 <ricky> Ah, sounds great.
17:32 <glezos> nirik, for start almost all modules registered at http://translate.fedoraproject.org/module/ will be supported.
17:32 <nirik> yeah, sounds nice.
17:32 <glezos> (at least that's what we are hoping for)
17:32 <glezos> hoping/planning/aiming
17:33 <Rasther> great!
17:33 <glezos> I believe this is a *great* opportunity for everyone, because it shows what can be achieved if we build bridges between teams and projects
17:33 <ricky> So I guess the last big thing for now is getting some nice documentation for project developers/translators.
17:33 <joseppc> glezos: my concern was whether it would happen like in rosetta, that is like a fork of every translation project there is (even if they encourage to work upstream), or we'd expect projects to actually use transifex as their translation platform
17:34 <ricky> As a frontend to normal translation tools, I think Transifex would be flexible and work well with projects' existing translation workflow.
17:34 <glezos> joseppc, it is definitely not a fork of the (upstream) translation project, because translations are submitted directly upstream and the upstream translation team has the control of what gets submitted
17:35 <glezos> Transifex could be installed by any project wanting to do the same thing. For example, Debian might want to install it to give its translators the ability to submit to GNOME.
17:36 <glezos> Any other questions?
17:36 <joseppc> glezos: yes, just a sec
17:37 <joseppc> glezos: but say the upstream project is gnome. As a gnome translator I would be a bit annoyed if parallely someone using transifex was doing a translation. I'd rather expect they to work in gnome directly. (I see transifex as a great tool/platform, though)
17:38 <glezos> joseppc, agreed -- with projects with existing translation communities, we will need to think how to integrate it with their workflow as ricky said
17:38 <joseppc> glezos: great
17:38 <glezos> joseppc, I've discussed it in GUADEC with the GNOME folks -- they agreed on this
17:39 <joseppc> glezos: nice, I missed guadec this year
17:39 <glezos> joseppc, what I'm thinking is to enable upstream language maintainers to approve submissions from downstream
17:39 <joseppc> glezos: a suggestion: xml-rpc or soap interfaces (if there aren't yet ;-)
17:39 * ivazquez thinks that there's very little keeping a project from creating their own Transifex instance, other than the isolation of their translators
17:40 <glezos> joseppc, right. We have to think on how to do it "properly" (downstream pushing to a service or upstream pulling with a script?) etc.
17:40 <ricky> Hmm.. I'm actually curious about how translation is usually handled with such a potentially huge group of translators.
17:41 <joseppc> ivazquez: there are good things in keeping translation close to the developers, rather than abstracting them
17:41 <ricky> As in, maybe we need a way to show who's working on what, so people don't step on each other's toes (although I'm not sure how this is normally handled for most large l10n teams).
17:41 <glezos> ricky, usually each language maintainer keeps things tidy and organized. So after the module maintainer, the upstream language leader will have the final word.
17:42 <ivazquez> joseppc: Oh, absolutely. But having a single Transifex instance allows all the projects to pool translators, instead of having to recruit them directly.
17:42 <joseppc> ivazquez: very true
17:42 <glezos> ricky, right. I'm happy to say that there's work taking place on that front -- ie. adding workflow support in damned-lies (our statistics app)
17:42 <ricky> So they manage to keep two people from working on the same strings at the same time, then- cool.
17:43 <joseppc> glezos: one last quick question
17:43 <glezos> ricky, gnome-i18n-list is the place for these issues (they are upstream for damned-lies)
17:43 <joseppc> glezos: I bet you've had to answer it many times already, but in what sense is transifex different from rosetta/launchpad?
17:44 <glezos> joseppc, let me just point to an answer on that then. :)
17:44 <glezos> http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=298#comment-31934
17:44 <glezos> > In Rosetta, translations are copied downstream (eg. in Ubuntu) and translators are given an interface to contribute to the copied versions, not the original ones directly.
17:44 <glezos> > With Transifex, by submitting translations directly to the original project, all downstream projects (including Ubuntu) are directly and immediately benefited from each submission. Instead of having a project reaching out to various translators, Transifex’s design has in its center a community of translators reaching out to various projects.
17:45 <glezos> And since I'm on it, let me quote Blizzard on an excellent quote:
17:45 <glezos> > While I’m sure that a lot of projects won’t want to use this service, it’s likely to be very useful to a lot of people. And what I love about it is that it fits so well into the Fedora Way: it vastly improves the lives of both translators and upstream projects in a way that grows the entire pie for everyone. Connecting the hundreds of translators who are active in Fedora with the thousands of projects out there with a very low barrier to entry solu
17:45 <glezos> tion.
17:46 <ricky> By the way, I'd love to see Transifex publicized/made known a bit more, which might also get you some more useful feedback.
17:46 <glezos> ricky, +1
17:47 <ricky> Any ideas on how to go about that? I'm not sure how this is usually done.
17:47 <joseppc> I bet the "translation project" would benefit from this a lot
17:47 <glezos> ricky, we were thinking in adding it as a Feature for F8
17:47 <ricky> Perhaps the marketing team (or posting to some -announce list- or even being mentioned on a lot of blogs, etc.) might be a good start.
17:48 <ricky> Ah, that sounds like an excellent way to get people talking.
17:48 <glezos> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/FeatureLocalization
17:48 <glezos> feel free to contribute there so we can push it as an accepted feature for F8
17:49 <glezos> I see Fedora not just as a selection of packages and functionality features but as a community, dynamic and potential
17:49 <joseppc> glezos: what does the ubuntu people think about this?
17:49 <glezos> joseppc, AFAIK they are aware of the problems of Rosetta
17:50 <glezos> joseppc, s/problems/limitations/
17:50 <glezos> and are interested in exploring the thought we have with upstream translations
17:50 <ricky> I hope you don't have the same problem as smolt, where people complain about its attachment to Fedora (stupid politics).
17:50 <glezos> Unfortunately, launchpad is closed source, so the community can't help Canonical in this respect.
17:52 <glezos> AFAIK there are no immediate plans in enabling Rosetta support upstream translations.
17:52 <glezos> You'd have to ask them
17:52 <joseppc> glezos: very interesting talk
17:52 <glezos> Thanks everyone for participating :)
17:53 <ricky> Thanks for the great work :)
17:53 <glezos> For more information, known issues etc: https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/transifex/
17:53 <openbysource> thanks glezos looking forward for the release of transifex
17:53 <glezos> openbysource, me too. :)
17:54 <ricky> ^ and a bunch of projects without established translators too.
17:54 <glezos> ricky, not to mention a bunch of translators wanting to reach out to those projects as well.
17:54 <glezos> :)
17:55 <glezos> Stay tuned.
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